Interviews with Karen and Stephen of No Bully For Me
Below are a selection of interviews with us (Karen and Stephen) and our experience of workplace bullying and our activities since being bullied, running No Bully For Me.
An MP3 soundfile of our CKNW interview.
A transcript of the CKNW interview.
Karen features in this Globe and Mail article; it's in full here:
Stephen features in this Canadian Business magazine article; it's in full here:
Here is an MP3 of an interview first broadcast on CKNW in Vancouver on 2nd. April 2004.
The broadcast has been edited - removing advertisments, news breaks and so on.
You can hear Karen and Stephen from No Bully For Me, Marje Burdine from Skytrain's Respectful Workplace project and Dr Garry Namie from Bullybusters.
Although CKNW edited the source interviews rather heavily it is still a powerful piece, and would be a good introduction to the subject for a group or workplace:
Listen to the CKNW interview here in MP3
New! Below is a transcript of the CKNW interview
Many thanks to one of our members (you know who you are...) who kindly typed out the interview for us.
We wanted to offer this alternative for those who are deaf or hard of hearing, but you might also find it useful to print and hand out at a workshop for example.
It's available in full below and as a PDF via this link:
PDF of CKNW piece on workplace bullying
Transcript of the CKNW interview
Announcer: Broadcasting live from Vancouver it's the Bill Good program. Now, here's Bill Good.
Bill Good: And welcome to those of you joining us on the Corus Radio Network this morning. We started the week by looking at the problem of school yard bullying. We're ending the week with a look at another type of bullying, one not confined to the playground. This bullying occurs in the very adult world of the boardroom and the workplace . The Corus Networks Yvonne Emore takes a look at a growing problem, workplace bullying.
Yvonne Emore: If you thought you left that childhood bully behind on the playground, think again. Bullies are just prevalent in today's boardrooms as they are in the school yard. They're the demanding boss, the undermining subordinate, the manipulating coworker and they're victimizing the workplace with what some experts call the silent epidemic, workplace bullying. It is hard to prove and yet it's effects on the workforce can be devastating. Washington State psychologist, Dr. Gary Namie, has studied the phenomenon for several years many workers will recognize his list of the tactics favored by the workplace bully.
Dr. Gary Namie: Their very tactics of controlling other people are sometimes devilishly creative and inventive uh but very cruel. Uh blaming people, accusing people of errors that were never made. And actually the bully helps invent the errors. They set the stage for the errors they set the person up to fail. A host of nonverbal intimidating tactics. Staring and glaring, and just looking hostile, the grimacing, the uh furrowed brow the uh everything but worried the appearance of hostility and rage. Um, discounted um discounting a persons thoughts or feelings um basically denigrating them in meetings. Using the silent treatment to ice people out and um icing out is pretty potent and its pretty sick. The mood swings the wild raging, fist pounding, vein bulging, maniacal mood swings in front of groups.
Yvonne Emore: Experts estimate as many as one in six workers is targeted for bullying in the workplace. A study conducted last year through an online survey shows woman are more likely to be targeted. The bully is likely a boss and men bullies are meaner than their female counterparts. Namie says workplace bullying is nearly invisible yet it is three times more prevalent than sexual harassment and it can turn making a living into a living hell. Karen is 38 years old and feels betrayed by the company that employed her for the past 8 years. Karen held a managerial position at one of the Lower Mainland's big box retailers. When she sits down to tell her story inside a noisy coffee house the pain is evident she had to leave this career path for the sake of her health. Going to work was making her physically sick.
Karen: I can't go back. I can't. I just broke down. I started crying. I never throw up. I've thrown up maybe three times in my life. I don't throw up that's not something I do you know and I threw up in the parking lot and I was shaking and I was just heart pounding I couldn't breath. And I thought , oh my god, I can't go back into this I can't do this there's something wrong and I was so depressed.
Yvonne Emore: Karen even considered suicide something not uncommon among people who are targets of a workplace bully. Karen says her bully was insidious tormenting her and her staff, lying and even threatening to kill her. Not only did the employer do little of anything to diffuse the situation it even convinced her not to file a police complaint about the death threat.
Karen: My boss wouldn't let me. I went to my boss, I said look I got to call the police but our thing is always you go to your assistant warehouse and manager before you go. So he two hauled me into the office and their like look, you can't do this, you can't call the police, we can't prove anything there was no one else there with you. It will just be worse for you let us handle it we will make sure it doesn't happen again. You know, the whole spiel and I talked to them for about 2 hours trying to say, you know, we got to go to the police this is ridiculous.
Yvonne Emore: The ridiculous became the unbearable and Karen is now on unpaid medical leave and without a income. She is contemplating legal action but does not have the money to drag her bully and her uncaring employer to court. Karen's sense of betrayal comes from the employer's refusal to help her. She says her superiors wanted to turn a blind eye to an ugly secret.
Karen: Yeah, don't rock the boat, don't tell anyone higher, we don't want anyone to know there's a problem here. You know, it's the whole it like a big dysfunctional family. It's the big secret that's the worst part of all of this. Is that if you keep it secret no one knows about it, it's not that bad. Right. But it's, it's worse . Once it's out you can deal with it. But everyone wants to keep it a big secret.
Yvonne Emore: The lack of support comes as no suprise to Stephen, he's been there. The 48 year old said he was drummed out of his job at a post secondary institution when a gang of bullies made his work life intolerable.
Stephen: Well, it's a lot of dismissive comments. Such as I'd be in the middle of saying something in a meeting and somebody would just interrupt and start talking about something completely different as though I hadn't been saying anything. Or once I started speaking people would get up and leave. On three occasions I was asked in for a 'chat' with management and on each occasion it turned out to be a disciplinary/grievance procedure. One completely made up. One completely blown out of proportion and one malicious.
Yvonne Emore: Like Karen, Stephen found his complaints were falling on deaf ears and even today he questions why he didn't quit.
Stephen: That's a very good question and and now when I'm advising people who are in a bad work place I'll always ask them what about just leaving. Should you just get out. I think there, there are several factors at play there. One is as they say is a question of right or wrong and if I'm being treated incorrectly/wrongly then it's not right that I should have to leave my job.
Yvonne Emore: Stephen's health began to fall apart but he didn't make the connection between illness and his toxic workplace and again like Karen, Stephen thought his situation would improve if only he worked harder. Stephen and Karen have some of the the star qualities that make them attractive as employees and sitting ducks for bullies.
Yvonne Emore: Dr. Namie says they are the workers most prone to the traumatic and debilitating effects of bullying.
Dr. Namie: Often the strongest, most highly principled person is the one whose most traumatized. They stay longer, they get sicker. They they jump higher, run faster. They don't tell people because of the sense of shame in the beginning. They keep it to themselves and during that silent period they are trying to prove to the bully that they are not incompetent as the bully has accused them of being
Yvonne Emore: He says that employers are reluctant to get involved in an issue that they would rather ignore. Vancouver psychologist and workplace conflict consultant Marje Burdine finds managers simply don't know what to do.
Marje Burdine: And most managers a) don't understand the dynamic and don't know what to do about it. So here's a problem that comes to them and their reaction may be, please just sort this out you two like learn to get along and grow up. Or, I don't even want to hear about this because I don't know what to do about with it. There's no easy solution here. I'm not going to fire either or you and I'm not going to move either of you. So what am I suppose to do to fix this. So they fell stuck with a problem they would rather not hear about. That's a very common reaction.
Yvonne Emore: Burdine says Canada is far behind other areas of the world where workplace bullying is not only acknowledged, it?s a crime.
Marje Burdine: And why has North America been so slow in getting on the bandwagon. I mean France has something like a twenty thousand dollar fine and up to five years in jail for workplace bullying. Sweden has been dealing with this for twenty years - Sweden. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, England you know for some reason Portugal even. And here North America there are very few places to go to learn about this topic.
Yvonne Emore: She says harassment policies are not enough. Burdine says bullying has to be handled separately because it is so distinct.
Marje Burdine: A lot of the policies are so vague. They have definitions of what is harassment. Many of them only deal with sexual harassment or perhaps discrimination as well as because that is covered under the legislation. But very few of them deal with personal harassment. So in other words if you were doing something to someone of a different ethnic background or sexual orientation or whatever then it would be covered. But if you just treat someone in this kind of demeaning, derogatory way and they don't fall within those grounds there is no protection in the policy for them.
Yvonne Emore: Employers might try a little harder if they knew that bullying affects their profit margins. Australian data suggests each case of workplace bullying cost an employer twenty thousand dollars. Other research indicates that with fifteen million employees in Canada's workforce, workplace bullying could be costing Canadian employers twenty-four billion dollars a year. But for Karen any epiphany on the part of her employer would come to late.
Karen: Couldn't go back. There's no way. I mean I know I've lost. I've given up all my original career dreams and everything that I had hoped to accomplish there and that's kind of is disappointing. You know there's a lot of things that I had hoped to do and that's just not an option anymore.
Yvonne Emore: Karen and Stephen have linked up to form a support group for the targets of workplace bullies. They're trying to turn their ugly experiences into something positive, if not for themselves than for others. And the people who bullied them - well they're still employed. This is Yvonne Emore from Vancouver.
Bill Good: You're with Bill Good on the Corus Radio Network. When we come back more with Yvonne Emore on today's special report on workplace bullying
Bill Good: With Yvonne Emore and a special report on bullying in the workplace Are there characteristics of a workplace bully are they easy to spot in the workplace?
Yvonne Emore: There is no real simple answer to that - it's yes and it's no We listened to Marje Burdine, she's a Vancouver counselor on workplace conflict and harassment, and she's been sort of been pioneering the efforts here in Vancouver to learn about this because really nobody knows that much about it. There are some characteristics but she says the one common denominator for sure is that there is always a power deferential. Whether it's a superior to a subordinate or whether it's one personality is stronger than the other there is always something involving power. But you can't really go into a work site and sort pinpoint those people
Marje Burdine: There's the person whose climbing the ladder. Somebody in their way they will find a very sophisticated way of lowering their esteem in the workplace. There is the person whose just simply very insecure and they see somebody else getting more attention then they get and they will do them in. There is the exploitive person who is just going to milk every ounce of energy out of their employees that they can and they know that these people cannot leave. So often this is when you have a very young or inexperienced workforce or maybe people who are new immigrants english may not be very good they don't have a lot of job options or when there is a lot of downsizing so they know they can push people to the breaking point. And the last one is the chronic bully who really gains some sense of power and pleasure from hurting, controlling seeing someone else tormented.
Yvonne Emore: These are not people who are just harassing and not knowing that they have abrasive personalities or whatever. And our US expert, because really there aren't many experts to talk about this, Gary Namie, he's from Washington State, he says you cannot stereotype type a bully in the workplace, however, he also says there is a common denominator.
Gary Namie: There is no one particular style or tactic. The over arching theme that all bullies share is a lack of control of their own lives. They are desperately grasping for control of some aspect of their life or all of it. And they don't have it. They can't control a spouse, they can't control their money making ability, they can't control their education level, they can't control something. And out of it and a sometimes a very deep seeded insecurity based on early familiar relationships you know prior to adulthood - they?ve got a hole in their soul. And they are going to use everyday, they are going to fill everyday in the workplace by controlling other people to compensate for something that there lacking.
Bill Good: And what happens when these bullies are confronted?
Yvonne Emore: This is, this is really difficult once you want to do that. Dr. Namie says that will depend on who confronts the bully. The target, he likes to call them not victims, but targets will get nowhere he says because the bullies consider the targets to be so beneath them what they say doesn't matter. So they might listen to a boss. Marje Burdine says the confrontation will not be easy and it will probably be nasty.
Marje Burdine: And they usually are very defensive, very verbal, very slick in being able to blame the other person and defend themselves. Very self-righteous, very indignant you know there's (pounds mike) you can expect this kind of a response.
Bill Good: So why don't those people who are being targeted just stand up to the bully or sit down to try and work it out.
Yvonne Emore: Well you think, that's what you think and when I first sat down with um two of victims or targets or whatever you want to call them and I have to admit I was like everyone else, I hope everyone else, a thought went through my head - deal with it. Like say you know say something.
Bill Good: That's because you would be very difficult to bully.
Yvonne Emore: We'll I'm glad to hear that. Well so would you I think you would be too. But you know what it's a psychological violence almost that is committed on you and that's really really hard to prove. And it's um so Karen one of the victims that I talked with said it's easy to say isn't it just a personality conflict like just sort of deal with it if you can't get along with someone learn to get along.
Karen: Oh god, a personality conflict is when you have different beliefs in things you know when you agree that something should be done differently. But most people are rational and sane and willing to talk things out or even if they are stubborn, you know, you can work around difficult personalities.
Yvonne Emore: And Dr. Namie has a really, really good analogy and if you keep this in mind then you kind of understand. He says we tend to fault the victim's in situations like this and he says workplace bullying is just like another form of abuse that we are all familiar with.
Dr. Namie: It's exactly like domestic violence. The difference between bulling and domestic violence is the abuser is on the payroll. That's the key there. And it's identical in it's interpersonal dynamics. The perpetrator characteristics are the same it's the blowhard whose all about controlling other people and their partner in this case and the poor target is the same characteristics as the victim. I'll stay, um, forever and show that I can do this I can tough it out I'm not week I'm not as stupid and undesirable as he says. And then we, as observers, mirror exactly what we do in domestic violence too. Of you know if it were so bad why does she stay for so long.
Yvonne Emore: And it took us a long time to get to the point where domestic dispute, domestic abuse was accepted, was understood and it's like sexual harassment, it's like racial discrimination it's all those things that those sort of ugly the ugly side of society that until we name it until we define it and in a lot of these cases the victim's they break down when they realize oh my god there is a reason that I'm feeling so bad. If they go on a web site or someone talks to the about workplace bullying. Because they feel validated that their not crazy that their not imagining this stuff.
Bill Good: What about the ongoing effects of workplace bullying?
Yvonne Emore: Karen says that she is a changed person after years of the bullying because. And one of the problem that makes it so difficult is that it's so relentless it's day after day after day. She had several problems at work and the bullying it's weathered toll on her outlook on life.
Karen: He kind of drained all hope for me that there was any good in people and I'm a real high idealist. But just that continual pressure and intimidation and emotional abuse was it just wears on you and your just exhausted and fighting it everyday. Everyday you cringe because you don't know what's going to happen next. You don't know where it's going to come from. Is it going to come from him or someone else he's riled up or you don't know where it's coming from, you just don't know where it comes from next. So stressed out I couldn't sleep at all I was getting like two hours of sleep if that a night . I mean total lack of concentration um I was terrified of people, I totally terrified of people. I was so not myself so I was withdrawn it was ridiculous. I was such a far caricature of who I really am I didn't even recognize myself when I left there.
Yvonne Emore: And Stephen also had emotional and physical illnesses some of which sounded quite bizarre as he endured years of bullying. He said he became hyper-vigiliant he would see somebody walking down a set of stairs carrying a manila envelope and he would start freaking out because when he was at work all of the bad stuff that happened to him would come via a manila envelope. So it's, it's so hard for us to understand. He said he was eventually diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress.
Stephen: The sleep was disappearing. Physical numbness. I couldn't feel my lips, my hands, my feet. My vision had been wonderfully perfect, extraordinary, I mean absolutely completely out of the ordinary wonderful eyesight and it started going down, down deteriorating very rapidly. And I had all these strange symptoms going on.
Bill Good: It's interesting how people look back and recognize what was going on and what was happening to them when at the time they knew something very unpleasant and uncomfortable was happening but they didn't hadn't recognized it for what it was.
Yvonne Emore: They didn't know what it was and they kept trying to make it better that's the weird thing and it's not them it's somebody else.
Bill Good: We will take a break and come back with more with Yvonne Emore and a special report on bullying in the workplace. Your with Bill Good and the Corus Radio Network and we would like to include your calls but we have a little bit more of this report to get in before we open the phones.
Announcer: Your listening to the Bill Good program. Once again here is Bill Good.
Bill Good: Yvonne Emore with us this morning with a special report on bullying in the workplace. So how do people react once they recognize what's going on.
Yvonne Emore: Once they recognize it if they're the victims they want to try and fix it and by that they usually think it's their problem so they work harder. Those around watching the bullying either turn a blind eye or they can either get on the band wagon and get in with the bullying it like it becomes a learned behaviour. Oh this is the way it is done at this work site or whatever. And then at the BC Teachers Federation we were running a story this morning that the Burnaby Teachers Association had commissioned a report because following complaints that a very small and I want to stress that, a very small group of principles, in the district had been bullying teachers. So the BCTF the BC Teachers Federation struck a panel to investigate this and the reaction of the school board because the board chair said that the teachers were not identified neither were the principles although I am now told that the school board was told who the principles were because they weren't identified the school board said it couldn't take any action and it sort of didn't really t do anything with the report. So that's a little bit of inaction. The BCTF Assistant Director, Field Services Division is a woman named, Mavis Lawrey, now she was on the investigative panel and she also drew up a paper on bullying and principles quite separate from this panel report. And she said that when she first started hearing these stories and I think she's referring to these teachers once they were holding these hearings she couldn't believe that this was real and she had the same response that I had when I'm listening to these people - and I'm going deal with it people, like get one with it.
Mavis Lawrey: My first reaction was come on get a life surely your not going to complain about this. And then it was when I heard the whole thing in context and saw the big picture and saw that it was relentless. It happened over and over daily it's kind of a wearing away at the employee wearing you down, picking at you in little ways that cause you to loose your self esteem and self concept but when you list all those incidents they don't sound like much.
Yvonne Emore: So it is really important that you can not take these complaints in isolation you have to look at the overall situation it's in what is going on. Like she says your first reaction is this sounds really trivial this is stupid, deal with it. Individually they don't sound like much but It's the relentlessness and repetitiveness that make it so bad.
Bill Good: But why do the reactions of the victim's seem so extreme?
Yvonne Emore: And they are quite some of them can be so extreme. That's what I found that people who are the victim's and I talked to three people and one including a teacher who I just so wish she wasn't so afraid of being taped because she was terrified of retribution she was so well spoken This had happened a number of years ago. You would have thought it happened yesterday. She was just I talked to her for about a hour and it didn't matter what question I asked she just started and she just took off talking, She could barely keep up with herself it was like it just kept coming out and out and out and out. Dr. Gary Namie, Namie, our Washington State Psychologist says these people have been traumatized and one of the reasons they react so violently is because of the trauma.
Dr. Namie: Because that's the nature of trauma. Trauma comes from surprise. Trauma comes from an overwhelming of the individuals ability to cope with circumstances. It's so irrational, it's so strong. It's debilitating because of the surprise nature to it. The jarring from the violation is what causes trauma. It shakes the person it causes an immediate lose of sense of safety and security. It overwhelms their ability to cope and they can't believe that ?s what's traumatizing.
Bill Good: And why is it so hard to deal with?
Yvonne Emore: Marje Burdine, she's our local expert, she says for one thing it is easier to ignore but people have to know that if they don't, employers need to know, workplace need to know, unions need to know that if this issue is not handled it's not going to go away.
Marje Burdine: It's toxic . I mean that's the word for it and it does because it's so under ground it just kind of smolders down under there it doesn't get dealt with. So it can the say the average person will put up with bullying for three years before they either resign or go to a lawyer or take some radical step to get away from it. But three years of putting up with that kind of treatment is a long time.
Bill Good: So don't employers know there's, problem given the fact targeted employee's are not performing and they are so obviously distraught.
Yvonne Emore: Well they can and one thing Marje Burdine says is the effect is felt not just by the target but it's also the workforce and the employer can't say I didn't know she says because it is not a secret. She says it's not a secret who the bullies are and not a secret that only the bullied workers are being affected.
Marje Burdine: Bullying as opposed to other forms of harassment often is well known about within the workplace. So any workplace you go in to they can name them so it's not hidden. The workplace got their spectators, bullying often happens in meetings or in front of other groups of people where it's even more affected because the targeted person becomes more humiliated when it's public. So it does affect the workplace, it affects bystanders and there often a group of bystanders who see it happen over and over and they see it escalate and they may feel, they may feel very um outraged that people are being treated this way in their workplace but they won't say anything because they are afraid of being next. Or they'll be um seen as connected to the victim.
Bill Good: Yvonne Emore with a special report on bullying in the workplace. We have a couple of more things to get to when we get back after the break but I would also like to include your calls. Perhaps your personal experience on this. Your reaction to the suggestion that workplace bullying is a big issue that it's something that employers should be very aware of and I'm told that there have been some huge judgments in the United States around this issue. So employers had best get educated on the topic. Back with your calls and more with Yvonne Emore six, zero, four, two, eight, zero, nine, eight, nine, eight (604-280-9898) is my number toll free one, eight, seven, seven, three, nine, nine, ninty-eight, ninty-eight (1-877-399-9898) back after a break,
Announcer: Your listening to the Bill Good program. Once again here is Bill Good.
Bill Good: With Yvonne Emore and a special report on bullying in the workplace and if your on the line I'm going to ask you to be patient and stay with us as I'm extending the segment. We're going to go over the top of the news and take as many calls as we can on it. How does it get fixed? Can it be fixed?
Yvonne Emore: This is really hard Bill. It's not going to be fast that's for sure. It's going to take a change in attitude at the management level, at the worker level, everyone is going to have to change in attitude. Workers and management are going to have to come together. Marje Burdine says unfortunately it is going to be a slow process. She says one of the things that she believes is that a third disinterested party has to come in, like somebody external. The employer has already hired the bully so chances are the employer is going to be biased. The studies show that the bullies will be defended by their boss because the boss actually put them in there and they are so good at manipulating and these little games and stuff. There's a number of steps that should be taken.
Marje Burdine: The first thing is there has to be a cultural change in the organization. So it's a different approach. It's deep in it's through and culture changes slowly. But it is the same things that the schools have found and we have learned a lot on how bullying is being dealt with in the schools and we're applying that to the workplace. But to just because it is cultural it has become condoned within these organizations it's part of the cultural of the organization. People know it's going on, nobodies doing anything about it. There is no protection. First people have to be made aware. Everyone in the workplace need to know what is this. What does this look like., What is it's impact. Why does it happen and what can be done about it. And that everyone has a responsibility to help get rid of bullying in the workplace.
Bill Good: And what advise do the experts have for employees who are suffering at the hands of a workplace bully.
Yvonne Emore: That's probably the toughest question of all to answer Bill, because the news is not really positive and I'm going to hand this one over to Dr. Gary Namie.
Dr. Gary Namie: Three steps. They're very hard to execute so I'm telling you right now. Number one is name it. By giving it a name psychological harassment, personal harassment, psychological violence, workplace bullying. Externalize the source, know you're not alone, know you didn't cause it. Step two . Because of the surprise nature your going to need time off. You're going to need respite. And we call this the bully proofing stage and during that respite you need to check with a mental health counsellor, you need to check with a lawyer to see if you have any legal options. You need to review all company policies and you need to start to build a business case calmly and cooly gathering data on how to expose the bully and make the case that the bully is to expensive to keep rather than to indispensable in the minds of executives. Step three then is that you have to expose the bully. And people say oh my gosh that's too confrontative. You know what you have a 70% chance that your job will be lost once targeted. That is the sad reality. And only 9% of cases are the bullies ever terminated, transferred or even punished and I lump those all together. So negative things do not happen to bullies, bad things happen to targets. You are already at risk, your health is damaged and once you complain the retaliation will be even more sever but you cannot sit silently by.
Yvonne Emore: And that's the thing, you can't sit there and do nothing it's only going to get worse. You can always get up and leave. Another thing that Gary Namie said was those who try and whether they get somewhere or not are healthier when they leave that workplace. Those who try and don't deal with they just wait until their fired or whatever. They have a hard time coming back from something like that.
Bill Good: Like the battered spouse.
Yvonne Emore: Like the battered spouse.
Bill Good: Very similar.
Yvonne Emore: Very similar and if you keep that in mind then you understand why it is so difficult for these people to come forward.
Bill Good: I had a feeling when we did this a lot of people were going to want to speak to the issue. Does the law address this?
Yvonne Emore: No. There's a law that's going into affect in Quebec. It's a step forward and even Gary Namie, he's American, he's aware of it. He said it's a great first step but the law is really, really vague. A private members bill has been introduced in Ottawa but it's a private members bill and this would be the like the be all and end all in anti-bullying legislation. But private members bills don't usually go anywhere. And the last thing is the WCB is looking at is now having hearings on changing some regulations and one of those changes would see the word bullying actually put into a WCB regulation and that would be a huge step.
Bill Good: I anticipate a lot of people wanting to speak to this issue so I'm going to a break now and we're going to take some calls up to the top of the clock. And then were going to extent the segment through until half past the hour and we will take your calls on this topic.. If you have experienced bullying in the workplace if you have some thoughts on the special report you have just been listening to with Yvonne Emore. Your with Bill Good and the Corus Radio Network Six, zero, four, two, eight, zero, nine, eight, nine, eight (604-280-9898). My lines are open to you toll free one, eight, seven, seven, three, nine, nine, ninety-eight, ninety-eight (1-877-399-9898).
Announcer: You're listening to the Bill Good program. Once again here is Bill Good.
Bill Good: Thank you. With Yvonne Emore. A special report today on bullying in the workplace. We''ve got a phone board that has just lit up with people wanting to talk to this issue as I was sure they would . Six, zero, four, two, eight, zero, nine, eight, nine, eight. Joe, hello.
Joe: How are you doing Bill?
Bill Good: Good. How are you?
Joe: Uh, still a little fresh for me when I heard this come on the air this morning. I'm like, wow, okay, I got to listen to this. And everything that I've heard has been exactly what I've gone through for the last well almost a year. And uh it's overwhelming.
Bill Good: Are you still in the workplace?
Joe: No I quit. I quit on Wednesday.
Bill Good: Oh so this is very, very recent.
Joe: Yeah it's well very recent and very sensitive cause it's family. I worked for family member whose older.
Bill Good: Oh my.
Joe: Yeah, and it so the ramifications just don't stop at the workplace. It, it fell through to the family and I'm the youngest and of course the other family members step in and say are you sure your making the right decision. And another family member has turned into what I think it was Yvonne said indignant and disrespectful, you know belligerent, same sort of thing attacking me for what I've done.
Yvonne Emore: What kind of...
Bill Good: No understanding of what you've been going through.
Joe: Yeah, well you know you try to explain it and the person you know family knows what the other family member is like. You know they can be quick to temper and I knew that all my life and. Was a victim of it you know but I was the little brother. And but now in the workplace and it started with ?if you don't do that your fired? and you know kind of off the cuff. Standing up on the desk swearing at me. You know and then it would be fine for a couple of weeks, a week and then you know there would a little here's a bonus your doing a great job thanks very much. But the next day would be like oh a mistake was made oh must have been Joe, sorry about that.
Bill Good: Standing up on the desk yelling at you?
Joe: Oh yeah. Not standing but leaning on the desk, yelling.
Yvonne Emore: Joe, if you, if you got a pen I've got a web site here I think might be just good for you it's a local support group that meets once a month and the or I should say the e-mail address no bully for me, one word, no bully for me at (Edit: our email address changed since this interview to nobullyforme@gmail.com Edited by Stephen) Drop them an e-mail and then can tell you when the support group meets and they can also give you some advice and listen to you.
Bill Good: Jerry in Nanaimo.
Caller Jerry(female): Hi Bill.
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Jerry: First time caller and I just wanted to say I only caught part of this and I'm so pleased that you are addressing this problem because it is very prevalent where I work. It is, like you said, we have a difference in power. There's five part-time employees and four full-time employees and they continually run the show and whatever the part-time employees do is not good enough or the right way and changes day to day.
Bill Good: And if you're part time your very vulnerable.
Caller Jerry: Yes and it has been brought many, many times to management and they try to address the problem but it is never addressed. It comes back continually.
Yvonne Emore: What kind of work do you do and try and make that vague as we don't want to paint anybody unfairly. Like is it retail, is it medical?.
Caller Jerry: It's more manual labor. Uh, that's all I can say.
Bill Good: Yeah, I know and again the fact that you have to be afraid to speak is um distressing.
Caller Jerry: Oh it's very distressing. And we have a lot of our members that are the part-time are to the point of breaking now I mean.
Bill Good: Union or nonunion shop?
Caller Jerry: Union. But..
Bill Good: Any help from the union?
Caller Jerry: Um, it's a very difficult situation cause it's a small town, small workplace.
Bill Good: And are the people who are guilty of the harassing or the bullying are they union members or are they management?
Caller Jerry: Neither. They're not management and they're just regular employees and their not union. They're union rep or anything like that.
Bill Good: So you've got an open shop they're are some union employees and some nonunion?
Caller Jerry: Well no were, yeah were open, we're union employees but we have no representatives right now.
Bill Good: I see. Jerry I have to break for the news. We'll come back and talk more about this. A special report today on bullying in the workplace.
Bill Good: It's time to give you a chance to respond to that report and tell us your stories. Barb in New West.
Caller Barb: Hi There.
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Barb: I just want to say thanks to all these people who coming forth and making this an issue because I think bullying has been going on for quite some time. It's just a matter of now people are coming forth and saying hey it's not right. And that's why it's in the lime, in the spotlight right now.
Bill Good: Have you been a victim or have witnessed bullying in a workplace or what.
Caller Barb: Both and I uh I was a target of victim, uh of a bully for about three years and before me there was someone who was bullied, a couple of people actually, so I think that we had a serial bully in my office. And there is a reluctance on the behalf of coworkers to come forward because they fear that they're going to be next on the bosses hit list. And I think that' s a huge problem. There's got to be a way for bystanders to actually report honestly and anonymously.
Bill Good: You have to have some confidence that your company or corporation, whatever, is going to be receptive and is going to take a fair and proper look at this if a complaint is brought forward as you say anonymously.
Caller Barb: Exactly and unfortunately where I worked it seemed that bullying was the preferred method of management. That was their style.
Yvonne Emore: And that's unfortunate because that, that again is like it's a learned behaviour. Somebody comes in and they go okay, that's, that's the way managers are in a place like this. And Stephen, the fellow I talked to, it was his first job in Canada and he thought well I guess that's what Canadian workplaces are like.
Bill Good: Are there workplaces that are more likely than others to be like this?
Yvonne Emore: Yup, and what I've learned Bill is, is and this is really generic but there are a couple of things that are common. Organizations that are very goal driven, that are very profit oriented, um deadline driven something like that tend to lend themselves a little bit more to a bit more of a pressure cooker. Gary Namie says that it use to be that the medical community use to be really bad but that seems to have lightened up quite a bit. And that's because of the hierarchy, the rigidity. Marje Burdine says you've got things like police forces, fire departments, medical staff those tend to lend themselves to that environment of very much strict, ridged I'm, I have superior, you know I'm superior.
Bill Good: Paramilitary type
Yvonne Emore: Yeah that type of thing and that's very generic you can't go into every hospital in the world has a bullying problem. You can't.
Bill Good: Alex, in Kelowna.
Caller Alex: Hi.
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Alex: Thank you very much for having this show on. And uh um I appreciate, I don't know how much of a detail you want. I was a victim. Um and it wasn't until I think I heard the beginning of your interview with Karen there that it sort of clicked and I put a name to it and um I just wanted to just come and tell you yeah it's out there. I was in a male dominated profession and that was one challenge and I really had no problems until this one person was hired. From then on it really became a living hell to the point where after two and a half years I couldn't cope with it and had to go on medical leave. And I never did go back.
Bill Good: Was this somebody who was hired in a supervisory role that you had to answer to or was it a coworker?
Caller Alex: Eventually, it was a coworker, eventually he did get, um you know, put into a somewhat of a supervisory position.
Bill Good: So he was rewarded.
Caller Alex: Yes. Yes. And uh, you know, I, hearing things like you know that this job was had to be gender neutral whenever you know if I brought something up well this is a gender neutral job. Or um, you know, things like if I had a problem well why don't you just quit and get married off. Um it, you know, just things that I knew weren't right but you know after a while you start doubting your own, you know, t he validity of you own problem and your logic.
Bill Good: Yup. So your on medical leave?
Caller Alex: Um well it's been long enough now that I'm not on medical leave. I haven't really been able to cope enough to, um, stick my neck out and put myself in an employment situation again. Because I'm scared.
Bill Good: How would you describe yourself before this experience?
Caller Alex: Oh, um I was really confident. This was a second career for me so I had gone back to school for four years to get into this. So I had experience of employment I was you know a confident person. While I went to school I was um president of um our student group. And um, you know, I was outgoing and um intelligent and all that and I just became very depressed and overwhelmed and ohI could go on and on.
Yvonne Emore: Well this probably doesn't help very much but one point to look at this is the reason that you were targeted is because this person saw you as a threat. So whatever you did you were doing a good job and you probably had a lot of friends at work. Good employment record and that person just felt you were a threat, that you were better than him, if it was a man. So if there is anything to take away from this if your afraid to go look for a job you have every reason to go look for a job because obviously your a good employee.
Bill Good: eff.
Caller Jeff: Yeah hi.
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Jeff: Well okay I'll tell you I work for one of the school districts in the Lower Mainland. I've been there for eighteen years and as far as I'm concerned it is absolutely rampant, I mean rampant , the bullying that goes on in the schools. And it's between management, principles, teachers uh, you name it and it goes on a regular constant basis. It was one of the first things I noticed when I started working for the school board. And uh there's micro management, nit picking of one sort or the other and if you speak out and say anything well your the only one whose complaining. Nobody else complains. They put you down. And I was actually quite shocked because when I got on with the school board I figured that I um it would be a good job to have, good benefits, good pay, life long job but I never been to a job that had this kind of thing going on it before like the way it goes on here. Your actually surprised because you figure it's a school system teaching children.
Yvonne Emore: Jeff one of the school boards that I talked to about a bullying problem in one of the districts involving a small number of principles, they pointed out that it's contract time between the BCTF and the you know schools and also the sort of the climate at the time and sort of hinting that this is a union management bun fight .
Caller Jeff: Yeah, but it's not just at those times that it goes on. I mean one of the things that I've noticed the most is that support staff, uh I know that were in an educational system, but they put everything into your bachelors degree, your masters degree and there is all kinds of other people that work in the school board that are not necessarily teachers. Right. There almost looked at with disdain.
Bill Good: How do you draw the line between somebody trying to manage, giving instructions perhaps trying to change something in a school, I'm thinking of a principle here, in a reasonable role of managing and crossing the line to bullying. How do you define that?
Caller Jeff: Well to me how I define it is I mean that anybody can you know like a principle or teacher or whoever you know every school has a code of conduct and to treat people in a dignified manner, treat, uh, you know , and it's pretty easy to be to see whether or not your being treated that way. And when somebody micromanages or nit-picks you they're on you every day for every little thing I mean it's pretty obvious what's going on.
Bill Good: Thank you Jeff. Your with Bill Good and the Corus Radio Network. Yvonne Emore here will take one more segment of your calls on bullying in the workplace. Six, zero, four, two, eight, zero, nine, eight, nine, eight (604-280-9898).
music
Announcer: Your listening to the Bill Good program. Once again here is Bill Good.
Bill Good: Focusing on bullying in the workplace. A special report today by reporter Yvonne Emore and I welcome your calls on the topic. Norm hi.
Caller Norm: Oh hi. Just listening to your show and I think it's fantastic. And uh, everything that you guys have been saying is just bang of what I have gone through the last couple of years. And it's just so discouraging because everywhere I turned, uh, you know, I couldn't get any help anywhere. And even the union, um, was just dealing with it one incident at a time. And, uh, just by fluke I went to a UBC lecture on bullying in the schools and um just drew the parallel, parallels to the workplace. And so now I think I'm going to address, I've been documenting everything, and now I'm going to address it to the union um just like you said over the context of the whole overview of the incidents.
Yvonne Emore: I think part of the problem is, is uh unions and companies think that if they have strong anti-harassment policies or contract language in place that that covers everything. And they can't, you can't assume that. Like from what I've realized I think bullying has to be a separate uh category or they have to deal with it completely separately because harassment is so broad and it's very vague and I mean you have to figure out and define every little thing. So defining bullying is very difficult and I don't really think that harassment is going to cover it.
Bill Good: Pat in White Rock.
Caller Pat: Hi.
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Pat: Your telling my story today.
Bill Good: Really.
Caller Pat: But I have to say that, Yvonne, your absolutely right do something about it because it's not going, your not going to come out good because they hired the guy. I worked for a school district. I was there for 22 years and went through hell. But.
Bill Good: Can you give us some sense of what you went through.
Caller Pat: Actually exactly what your saying. We got a new boss. I was very, I don't know if you would say popular in the district, but I was doing a lot of, I was in management, I was in personnel, I was hiring people, I was doing union jobs. I got along with people. This so I knew the district, I knew the district inside and out. I've been there done that. Didn't work. You can't be better than the little man that thinks he's better than anybody. And he hurt, he really hurt. He made me look foolish. He made me in and out of meetings where I wasn't wanted. He uh I had blackouts. My doctor said get out of there and get out of there now.
Bill Good: But did you?
Caller Pat: But no I was stubborn. I'd been there a long time. I could do my job I could do what I could do.
Bill Good: You didn't want him to beat you.
Caller Pat: No, No. People didn't like him. They still don't. But you know what I was going to win out over this, well you don't , you really don't. The only thing I won out over is they asked me not to do this, they gave me another job, it was a great job I enjoyed every minute of it. And then I owe this guy big time. I retired four years early and I have enjoyed every minute of it. Otherwise, I would have stayed until I was sixty-five because I loved it.
Bill Good: Humph.
Caller Pat: So there is some goodness to it but...
Bill Good: Well.
Caller Pat: you know what your saying Yvonne I can understand because man you come home and you pound the wall because you think why, why is this happening to me. All my life I've been promoted and given raises and praised and given some heck too because I was stupid in some cases. Because when your dealing with unions all the time you can't always win. But you know when you do win when you deal with someone like this it makes you stronger and it makes you a better person. And, unfortunately, you ruin your workplace effort because he's got more pull than you have to get people that you thought were your friends to go against you.
Yvonne Emore: Well maybe they were just afraid or they felt incapable of coming to your defense and it's also coworkers are put in a tough spot too. They can either you know jump on the bandwagon
Bill Good: Very often people wind up taking sides too.
Yvonne Emore: Yeah, that's true.
Bill Good: William.
Caller William: Hello.
Bill Good: Yes.
Caller William: Yeah, hey Bill, I had to phone a cop one time. My foreman was an alcoholic eh and still is and he was in one of his drunken stupor's one day and hey I had my daughter out on the loggin road there trying to teach her how to hunt deer and he stopped and aimed a rifle at both of us. So I went home and phoned the cop and uh and well in the end I was told don't expect us to charge the company foreman and your money is better spent elsewhere. So there isn't much you can do about it and if your a union member IWA and his brother-in-law is the camp chairman the IWA will stab you in the back too.
Bill Good: Hump.
Caller William: So I guess...
Bill Good: William I've got to more on. Lucy hello.
Caller Lucy: Hi,
Bill Good: Hi.
Caller Lucy: I've been working in an office for thirteen years and I was bullied a lot more before than I am now. Um, I was lucky my boss put me in a position where I don't really have to deal with her as much anymore. And when I...
Bill Good: Was the boss, um, sympathetic?
Caller Lucy: Um, well he listened.
Bill Good: Hump. But the person''s still there.
Caller Lucy: Oh god she's been here from day one.
Bill Good: Now does she bully other people or just you?
Caller Lucy: Oh, lots of other people. He's been taken out for lunch and people the staff have told him and he won't do anything. I've phoned the Labour Board. My husband has come into the office with me to talk to him and he says that it would cost to much money to get rid of her. But I basically used child psychology with her. If I want time off, she's in a position where she can make it so I can't take the time off, it's to busy. I um, I uh, basically use child psychology and go, ?no I don't think I'll take time off? and I get my time off.
Yvonne Emore: That's way to much effort.
Bill Good: Yeah, but it's interesting but it's not just men.
Yvonne Emore: No. No. It...
Bill Good: Woman can be bullies too.
Yvonne Emore: Yes, I mean more of the bullies tend to be men according to the data but no definitely.
Bill Good: Dave.
Caller Dave: Uh, Is that me?
Bill Good: Yes it is.
Caller Dave: Yeah, I'm an employer. I own a company out in Abbotsford here and I just feel like you guys are railing against the boss.
Bill Good: Uh huh.
Yvonne Emore: Well we don't mean to rail against the boss we are just trying to bring forward an issue that needs to be studied and sort of raise awareness on an important issue in the workplace.
Caller Dave: I mean there's, there's always two sides to these stories and I just wonder, you know, are these people really doing their job, you know. I mean is , what's, what's the bosses role here , if somebodies not towing the line...
Yvonne Emore: See that..
Caller Dave: what option does he have.
Yvonne Emore: And that's exactly the attitude that the bullies find they're faced with when they're trying to fix the situation. Is employers who won't acknowledge that there's a problem that needs to be fixed so therefore they would rather turn a blind eye, they're to busy, they want the workers to deal with it themselves and that's the whole point of what we are trying to do is raise awareness.
Bill Good: But I don't think there is any question that this is an issue. Defining it can be difficult and it can require some mediation, some counseling, excuse me (clears throat) but, most people have seen bullying in the workplace and instinctively you know the difference between a good boss, a demanding boss, um, and a boss whose a bully.
Yvonne Emore: Sure.
Bill Good: Or a coworker whose a bully. Most people, in my experience, like a boss whose clear, whose effective, who gives good direction and frankly is tough, but provides good leadership. There's a difference between that and harassing, haranguing and bullying.
Yvonne Emore: That's right and the psychological torment I think that's one of the keys to, these little mind games, that these, that these people are playing. And a lot of people, who are, who are accused of harassing people might not know that they are, that they have an abrasive personality or that they've, that they've hurt somebody's feelings. So bullying again, I say it's very distinct. And any employer who doesn't want to look at I go, that's, your just burying your head in the sand. You have to at least acknowledge that it's possible that you have employees who are bullying.
Bill Good: Bill, hello.
Caller Bill. Hello. Am I on?
Bill Good: Yes, you got a contribution to make?
Caller Bill: Yeah I do. I've got over twenty years with a major municipality and when I became a shop steward within ten minutes, in front of a witness, my superintendent said that he was going to make my life miserable forever and he did that. Every time I won a grievance I got punished with the scummiest job on the site and it just continued with false reports and things. And my union wouldn't deal with it, they wouldn't even bring a witness in when I went before the City management. Um, took it all the way to the LRB and the LRB guy, the vice-chair, took me of to the side there and he said well you know how it works with unions and I said how's that. And he said at the end of the year they have, it's like a hockey team, he they says they had a hundred grievances and we won eighty-five of them rah, rah. But they don't tell you the really sensitive ones that they employer would really hate to loose they won't touch because they know the employer has the money and they can take every single grievance to the wall and uh, make the union's life totally miserable.
Bill Good: Bill, I have to move one because we are flat out of time for this segment this day but I think just from the calls we've got the e-mail we've got clearly this is an issue hat a lot of people are living with.
Yvonne Emore: Yup, and I think we have to look at it and I've got a couple of web sites I want to pass on. Um bullyonline dot org that has a number of bullying sites and links in Canada people can click onto. Bullyonline dot org and workdoctor dot com and that's the one for Dr. Gary Namie, workdoctor dot com.
Bill Good: Thank you Yvonne. Yvonne Emore it is Friday your on the Corus Radio Network and because it's Friday we are going to wind up the weeks work with Rick Forchuck with his weekly look at video and the movies.
Announcer: It's eleven-thirty. This is CKNW news.
Mike Cleaver: Good morning I'm Mike Cleaver. Workplace bullying is a silent epidemic according to a US psychologist who has spent years studying that problem. Dr. Gary Namie says employers have either the inclination, neither the inclination nor the desire to tackle this growing problem. Namie's anolog, analogy of this inaction is startling.
Dr. Gary Namie: This is a described as a mini holocaust in many ways. You've got a bunch of silent observers standing by, good German's if you will, while the tormentor, the one Nazi, is the one who scares everyone into compliance. And witnessing it silently or inaction and they paralyze their victim and they don't seem let up. They're relentless.
Mike Cleaver. Namie says human resources departments are incapable of handling the issue. He says one in six workers is targeted by workplace bullies.
'Mobbing: bullying's ugly cousin'
by Ann Kerr from the Globe and Mail, 8th December 2004
For Karen Learmonth, a manager at a company in Western Canada, it started slowly.
"Some people stopped saying 'Hello.' They whispered behind my back. It was hard to get my orders filled in the warehouse," she recalls.
Then the sense of being shunned by her colleagues got worse.
"I wasn't invited to . . . meetings. Internal changes were made to my department without my knowledge," Ms. Learmonth maintains.
She hurt her back on the job and went on disability leave. But when her back improved and it came time to return to work, she found she couldn't.
"I wasn't sleeping or eating and I had the shakes. Whenever I went near the place, I threw up. My doctor said that I'd been traumatized and was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder," says Ms. Learmonth, who remains on long-term disability leave.
What Ms. Learmonth experienced fits the description of what the experts call mobbing.
It occurs when people in a workplace gang up to unfairly ridicule, ostracize and eventually force out a fellow employee. The target can be a colleague, subordinate or even a boss.
It's a lesser-known form of workplace harassment than bullying but it is just as destructive, says Noa Davenport, a cultural anthropologist and co-author of Mobbing: Emotional Abuse in the American Workplace.
In fact, some argue that mobbing can be even worse. Unlike bullying, which is carried out by one person and stops if that person is moved, fired or otherwise removed, mobbing can start with one or two perpetrators, then spread like a virus through an entire organization.
Like many Canadians, Ms. Learmonth hadn't even heard of mobbing until her experience.
Though barely recognized in North America, mobbing is considered a serious workplace threat by several European countries, which have instituted legal protections against it, Ms. Davenport says.
"This is a serious health and safety issue that's costing billions of dollars in lost productivity and stress-related illness," she adds. "But most organizations don't see the problem. They think it's something people can just work out themselves."
Estimates of how often mobbing occurs vary widely. At the very least, 2 to 5 per cent of people will be mobbed some time during their work life, according to German psychologist Heinz Leymann, the first to study and name the phenomenon 20 years ago.
But mobbing and other forms of workplace harassment seem to be on the rise, says Gerry Smith, vice-president of organizational health at WarrenShepell in Toronto, judging from recent cases dealt with by his firm, which provides employee assistance programs and other health services to business.
"I know from the work at WarrenShepell that there's been a fairly substantial increase in cases in the past five years," says Mr. Smith, who is conducting free seminars to help businesses identify and address mobbing and other forms of workplace harassment.
Being treated in an uncivil manner by colleagues a couple of times doesn't count as mobbing. To fit the definition devised by Mr. Leymann, you have to be mistreated several times a week by two or more people, for at least six months.
In many cases, Ms. Davenport says, the mobbing can go on for years.
Eventually, mobbing sends targeted employees into a downward spiral, she says. They quit, get fired, or get sick and go on extended leave.
In some cases, senior management even tacitly encourages the behaviour, says Linda Shallcross, a public sector management researcher at Griffith University in Queensland, Australia.
"It's a way of getting rid of a person who's been doing their job but, for some reason, they don't like. If it was a constructive dismissal, they'd have to pay. They're hoping the person will just quit," says Ms. Shallcross, who is conducting a study of Australian women in different occupations who have been mobbed.
People working in large bureaucracies where there's little accountability and few ways to measure achievement can turn to mobbing to vent their frustrations, says Kenneth Westhues, a sociology professor at the University of Waterloo and an author of two books about mobbing in academia.
Like many who research and write about mobbing, Prof. Westhues says he was a victim himself at one point in his career.
"Generally, it's a group ganging up on someone because they don't fit in -- they may look or act different, or have a stronger work ethic. The person can become a scapegoat for whatever's wrong in the office," adds Frema Engel, an organizational consultant who is head of Engel and Associates in Montreal, and the author of Taming the Beast: Getting Violence Out of the Workplace.
Sometimes it starts as a conflict with one person, who then convinces or coerces others to ostracize the victim, Ms. Engel says.
Downsizing and the stress that goes with it can be an incubator for irrational mob behaviour, Mr. Smith says.
Job insecurity leads to fear and frustration, while managers have less time to actually manage their staff and notice inappropriate behaviour, he adds.
What makes mobbing so dangerous, Ms. Davenport says, is that "it's so subtle, so hard to prove. But the effects are devastating."
Victims may suffer stress-induced ailments, including headaches, stomach aches, high blood pressure and psychological problems, Ms. Davenport says.
In extreme cases, mobbing can even be life-threatening. Ms. Learmonth, who helps to run a Vancouver Web-based support group called No Bully For Me, says some mobbing victims she hears from contemplate suicide.
Group harassment can have tragic consequences for all involved as in the 1999 case of former OC Transpo employee Pierre Lebrun, who shot and killed four people at the company in Ottawa and then himself. The coroner's inquest indicated that Mr. Lebrun had been ridiculed and ostracized, and recommended new laws and company policies to prevent hostile behaviour from getting out of control.
So far, Quebec is the only jurisdiction in North America to deal directly with mobbing, bullying and other kinds of workplace harassment, with an amendment this June to its labour code, but it's still too early to tell how effective it will actually be, says Pierre Jauvin, an employment lawyer with Langlois Kronstrom Desjardins in Montreal.
Elsewhere, it's still difficult to fight a legal battle against mobbing, says Norman Grosman, a senior partner at Toronto employment law firm Grosman Grosman and Gale.
"You can launch a human rights complaint . . . but people are usually picked on in subtle ways -- not being included in the conversation, not being invited to parties -- that aren't covered in the legislation." Mr. Grosman says.
If the mobbing is too unbearable to stay at your job, you could try to sue for constructive dismissal, he says. Everyone is legally entitled to a workplace that is civil, decent and fair, he adds, but the onus is on you to prove it wasn't.
To do that, typically you need corroborating evidence, provided by witnesses, and that can be very hard to get, Mr. Grosman says.
Some public and private employers do recognize that mobbing is a definite workplace hazard.
New Brunswick Power Corp. in Fredericton, for instance, has a 'respectful workplace' policy, says Rita Hurley, the full-time diversity manager who holds workshops to teach managers and other employees how to prevent mobbing and diffuse it when it occurs.
Ms. Engel and Mr. Smith have worked with a number of firms, and Prof. Westhues has been consulted by unions and professional associations in Canada.
While people might have legitimate complaints against others in their workplaces, it's "never justifiable to torment another person," Ms. Davenport says.
Instead, concerns about a colleague's performance or personal conduct should be dealt with officially through proper channels, she says.
More public education and better company policies are what's needed most to prevent negative group think from taking hold, mobbing experts and victims say. No Bully for Me is seeking funding to start a national telephone hotline.
Beyond its harrowing impact on personal lives and workplace productivity, there's another sobering reason for organizations to take mobbing more seriously, Ms. Engel says.
"It's usually just one symptom of a lot of other conflicts in an unhealthy work environment," she says. "The only way to cure it is to bring it out into the open and deal with it."
Prevent mobbing
You don't have to like the people you work with but you do have to treat them with respect.
That, simply, is the credo that Rita Hurley, diversity manager at New Brunswick Power Corp. in Fredericton, preaches to prevent mobbing at work.
Easier said than done.
While it can be tough slogging in any organization to get people to make nice, here is what experts suggest to attack mobbing and prevent it from taking hold in the first place:
Get senior management onside to recognize mobbing as a legitimate workplace hazard, and include it in an anti-harassment policy. "You have to be very clear in the wording about the kind of behaviour that isn't acceptable," Ms. Hurley says.
Instruct line managers on how to recognize mobbing and nip it in the bud. "Even if a manager can see a problem, he could be overwhelmed in his own job or not able to deal with conflict," says Frema Engel, an organizational consultant in Montreal and author of Taming The Beast: Getting Violence Out Of The Workplace.
Establish ground rules for civil behaviour. In meetings, for instance, "no one is allowed to cut someone else off or criticize their comments, everybody gets to talk." Ms. Engel suggests.
Hold workshops for employees that include suggestions on how to build a respectful and friendly workplace. "You need to get specific, to encourage people to exchange greetings in the hallways and use eye contact when talking to each other," Ms. Hurley says.
Show people through role-playing how to respond if they're being shunned. If, for instance, everyone stops talking when you enter the room, "turn to one of the people and tell them you don't know why that is happening, you want it to stop and ask them if they will," Ms. Engel says. "Usually people will recognize it's wrong and stop." The key is to stay calm and respectful, she adds.
When mobbing persists, have a manager bring the parties together and get them to suggest solutions and draft an agreement. "The manager's role is to mediate, to get all those involved to take ownership," Ms. Engel says.
Follow an established procedure. At N.B. Power, perpetrators are first verbally warned to cease such behaviour. If the mobbing continues, there will be a written reminder, kept on file. If it still continues, offenders will be sent home on leave. When they return to work, they have to write and sign a statement that they will act appropriately, Ms. Hurley says.
As a last resort, the experts say, fire the perpetrators.
'Workplace Bullying' from Canadian Business Magazine
It dismantles teamwork, hobbles productivity--and costs money
It's a phrase that many people haven't yet heard. It certainly was new to Teresa Grant (not her real name) of Cambridge, Ont., when she ran across it in a newspaper article. But as soon as she saw the words "workplace bullying," she knew she had a name for the situation that had just driven her from a job she had loved for seven years.
In Vancouver, when Stephen Hill stumbled across a list of health symptoms related to bullying, he suddenly made the connection, too. "I only realized I was being bullied after six years," he says. When he showed the list to his wife, "she burst into tears," he now recalls.
As schoolyardish as it may sound, workplace bullying is a range of behaviour that breaks down the mental and physical health of its target. Apart from compassion--and there's nothing wrong with that--the reason executives should care is that workplace bullying dismantles teamwork, hamstrings efficiency, hobbles productivity and, ultimately, costs money.
Grant was proud of her position as an operations manager in the construction industry. "It was a job that I put my life into," she says. "I went away to trade shows--and I had two little babies at home. Any time they needed me, I was there. I don't think in five years I ever woke up and thought, 'Oh my god, I have to go to work.'"
But when two new employees were hired to work under her, Grant descended into two years of torture. "It was not one big thing," she explains. Instead, she describes a stream of constant criticism, verbal abuse and insubordination that was hidden from her superiors. When Grant approached her boss, no reprimand was given--and Grant was relieved of her supervisory capacity over the two women. "After that, it just got worse because they knew they could walk over me," she recalls.
Grant wanted to apply for counselling, but knew her claim would pass through the hands of one of her tormentors. "I was demoralized, I was ridiculed, I was not supported by the board of directors," she says. "The last day that I worked there it was pure hell, and the person who made it pure hell was sitting at my desk and doing my job."
Hill's story is similar in many ways. A co-ordinator for a non-profit organization within a university, he found himself targeted by a group. Like Grant, Hill points not to one dramatic incident but to a continuous barrage. "I was kept out of the loop," he says. "I was asked for my input on decisions that had already been made. I was called into meetings that I assumed would be a chat and found they were full disciplinary hearings. I would sit in a meeting, and people would file in and sit as far away from me as possible."
Hill compares the abuse to repetitive strain injury: tapping a keyboard once or twice won't hurt you; it's the repetition that's crippling. His psychologist diagnosed him as suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. "Previously I had taken about three sick days in six years," he says, but in no time he was embroiled in rounds of Workers' Compensation Board submissions and leave time. After a miserable two-month attempt to resume his job, Hill was officially laid off, and his position was redesignated.
Researchers like Gary Namie of the Bellingham, Washington based Workplace Bullying and Trauma Institute find that women are somewhat more likely to bully than men, and far more likely to be bullied. Often, he says, "the co-workers are somehow allowed to construe events as the target's fault." Something of a bullying guru, Namie got into the field after his wife, Ruth Namie, a clinical psychologist, suffered at the hands of a workplace bully. The couple's work is documented both on their website and in their 2003 book, The Bully at Work.
Marje Burdine, a Vancouver-based organizational consultant, finds that bullying often affects people at high levels of responsibility and, as in Grant's case, that a junior employee can bully a supervisor. "I've dealt with several cases where a middle manager in a large organization is being targeted by the people who work for him or her, and the shame of being humiliated in this manner is so great that they don't tell anyone," she says. And the costs are high. In North America, most targets eventually leave their position. Based on Australian research, Burdine estimates bullying costs about $20,000 per case, or about $24 billion each year in Canada.
One step toward addressing the issue is through legislation. Australia has included measures that specifically or indirectly address bullying in several pieces of legislation, as have Norway, Britain and France. Quebec is the first jurisdiction in North America to do so. Brought into force in June, section 81.18 of that province's Labour Standards Act defines "psychological harassment at work" as "vexatious behaviour that manifests itself in the form of conduct, verbal comments, actions or gestures" that are repetitive, hostile and unwanted. "We've got to have a movement sweep across Canada to complete what they've started in Quebec," says Gary Namie. "The thing that gives me hope is that Canadians are not afraid to use the term 'workplace bullying.'"
Still, legislation is only a beginning. "The only purpose of legislation is to cajole employers and the workplace as a whole into addressing the situation," argues Hill. "Organizations need to be accountable and responsible for the environments they create."
Some are. Beginning about 10 years ago, management of British Columbia Rapid Transit Co. Ltd. (SkyTrain) and CUPE Local 7000 worked together for more than a year of policy drafting and focus groups to create a "respectful" workplace program and policy, with broad input from employees. Now Marje Burdine is available as an outside resource to SkyTrain employees under the title of respectful workplace adviser. "There needs to be a safe place in an organization for an individual to go and seek help. It has to be someone who reports to no one else," she says, pointing out that BC Hydro had a similar arrangement with her.
At SkyTrain, if a bad situation cannot be resolved, management may be called in with a ruling ranging from training or mentoring to staffing changes. "It's been very, very effective," Burdine reports. "There's a renewed respect for management and the union because some tough decisions have been made."
Similarly, at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, management and two unions came to the conclusion that Ontario's Human Rights Code did not apply to fully 60% of the cases that were coming forward within the institution, so they collaborated on a new addition to the internal harassment and discrimination policy. Now, when a case is reported, peer investigators attempt a resolution. The final recommendation falls to Rhoda Beecher, the centre's vice-president of human resources and organizational development. "I have to tell you I'm very proud of this policy," she says. "People are incredibly empowered."
Since his own experience with workplace bullying, Stephen Hill has dedicated himself to fighting it. Shortly after leaving his job, he co-founded an organization called No Bully For Me and began training to become an employment counsellor. "Part of my motivation for moving into this field is to put workplace bullying at the forefront of employment counselling," he says. "Statistics vary, but some 15% of shiny new jobs are going to be abusive workplaces."
Teresa Grant found another job two weeks after leaving her position, but she still feels hurt that no one in her former company supported her. "I know that everybody can be replaced, but I felt I had so much dedication to this company-- and we started from the ground up--that in my heart I felt that I was irreplaceable on a moral level," she says. "I find myself asking why more than anything else. It was my job and there's nothing else out there quite like it."
Canadian Business Magazine September 2004; written by Sarah B Hood (thanks Sarah!)